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Title: From Find A Grave for John Counts of Glade Hollow Media type: story Format: |
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| Record ID number | 4cfc3845-84ef-4c86-a72d-1211b9ad46b5 |
| OBJE:_META | <metadataxml><content><line><p>John &ldquo;of Glade Hollow&rdquo; Counts</p></line><line><p>Birth: 1734 Page County, Virginia, USA</p></line><line><p>Death: 27 Apr 1803 (aged 68&ndash;69) Cleveland, Russell County, Virginia, USA</p></line><line><p>Burial: Counts Cemetery # 1 Glade Hollow, Cleveland, Russell County, Virginia, USA</p></line><line><p>Memorial #: 36880528</p></line><line><p>Bio: I am getting a lot of emails on this particular John Counts.&nbsp; I would like to remind everyone that even though we would like to add genealogy to the memorials (and I do all the time), this&nbsp; memorial was set up to document graves.&nbsp; There are many sites for genealogy. I will and have added peoples comments when they are not nasty in the email.&nbsp; Wife - Magdalena Eve SummersEarly information of COUNTS family members is from a lifetime of research and visiting by lawyer and family friend, Judge, Elihu Jasper SUTHERLAND of Clintwood, Russell County, Virginia and from a book published by his wife, Hetty (SWINDALL) SUTHERLAND: SOME DESCENDANTS OF JOHN COUNTS OF GLADE HOLLOW (Southwest Virginia) 1722-1977.FAMILY:&nbsp; &nbsp;[John] COUNTS of Glade Hollow, Russell County, Virginia bought his first farm in 1765 on Hawksbill Creek northwest of Luray, formerly Frederick County, then became Shenandoah County in 1772 and then Page County, Virginia in 1831.&nbsp; The old COUNTS' home-farm is located three miles northwest of Luray and about one mile south of the mouth of Hawksbill Creek in Page County, Virginia.&nbsp; John COUNTS bought another farm and moved to Glade Hollow, east of Cleveland, Russell County, Virginia about 1789 and was buried on this place. Later to be the Henry F. GRAY place.&nbsp; His son, George COUNTS, lived on the Glade Hollow farm until 1835, then he moved to Washington County, Virginia.&nbsp; John COUNTS left the farm on Hawksbill Creek to his son, Philip COUNTS.Everyone has an opinion.&nbsp; Here's one .........Contributor: Phyllis Counts Suggested Edit:&nbsp; Hi Barbara. You reference the Sutherland book. It clearly states, "John Counts of Glade Hollow is the earliest definitely known ancestor of the Countses of Southwest Virginia. ..... Nothing is definitely known of his ancestry, birth, relatives or early life. ... There were numerous immigrants of the name K-U-N-T-Z (the old Germanic form of Counts), and its various spellings. Several of them became settlers in the Shenandoah Valley at an early date. It is also POSSIBLE that our John Counts of Glade Hollow was a descendant of Joseph Kuntz (or COUNTS, as he spelled his name in his will in 1730) who came from Germany to Germanna, Virginia, in 1714." To date, not a single person has documented a relation to Nicholas, John Koontz, or the parents that you list for John. Even though there is an asterisk as a *calculated relationship*, I don't think it should be connected. DNA evidence does not support the linking of them either. From my recollections, in particular Rev. John Koontz, whose own descendant, Lowell Koontz, definitely says there is no correlation and has the DNA evidence that JC of GH is NOT related by evidence. Since you are the person in charge of this memorial, I am asking you to unlink the parents and the others until as such time as you can share the so-called evidence. At some point, everybody and his brother saw the undocumentable evidence and just repeats the same information as if it is true and verifiable. It is not and we must take a pause until it is.&nbsp; &nbsp;another opinion Contributor:&nbsp; Susan Jurban - sjurban21@comcast.netSuggested Edit:&nbsp; John's parents are unknown, he was not the son of Johannes Michael Cuntze and Anna Catherine Stoever. Their son, Elder John Koontz b. 1739; d. 1832 Alma, Page Co., VA m. Elizabeth Baker. Please see the Memorial page for Elder John Koontz - Find A Grave Memorial 48366090 With all the opinions I receive on John Counts, I ask for sources from them and don't get any.&nbsp; So for now I will leave John as is until I see some sources that say different.&sim;NOTICE:&nbsp; PLEASE DO NOT LINK ANY MEMORIALS TO THIS.&nbsp; WE ARE SEEKING TO CORRECT AND CLARIFY INFO FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL RESEARCHERS. 8/2018IN OUR SEARCH OF THIS PARTICULAR ANCESTOR, WE HAVE NOTICED UNDOCUMENTED AND ERRONEOUS INFORMATION ROUTINELY DUPLICATED AND SPREAD ON REPUTABLE GENEALOGY SITES AMONGST THOSE SEEKING INFORMATION REGARDING OUR ANCESTORS.&nbsp; AS SUCH WE ARE SIMPLY ATTEMPTING TO STOP &amp; SET SOME OF THE RECORDS STRAIGHT.&nbsp; &nbsp;THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ---------------------------------------------------------- We would like to first apologize for bursting any bubbles but in genealogy research, especially, it bears repeating that copying others "work" and posting it on the internet does not make a document, does not provide proof and does not make it true.&nbsp; &nbsp;We are still researching, still looking, still open to possibilities but we look for actual documentation and proofs.&nbsp; We welcome it.&nbsp; &nbsp;We know that you do, too.For this particular named ancestor, other than documentation located by Counts kin and historian, Ellihu Jasper Sutherland, as of yet, additional documentation is not forthcoming in specific regard to the name of his parents,&nbsp; where they came from, the location and date of his birth,&nbsp; day and month of his death, names of his siblings, and maiden name of his wife.&nbsp; We can all agree that this needs to be accurate.NAMES OF JOHN&rsquo;S CHILDREN HAVE BEEN DOCUMENTED BY E.J. SUTHERLAND.&nbsp; Were there additional children that were missed by him?&nbsp; Cousin Sutherland was a notorious researcher, both professionally and privately.&nbsp; As a lawyer and judge he had personal access&nbsp; to documents we have yet to see ourselves.&nbsp; &nbsp;Current researchers, not just copiers of others so-called lists, seem confident that John&rsquo;s children listed in Sutherland&rsquo;s &ldquo;Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow&rdquo;, stand.&nbsp; Copies of the documentation were not included in the book that his wife and son assembled and published after his death.&nbsp; Some well-meaning contributors are listing information as though they are established facts and when asked, "Where is the documentation that has eluded so many, for so many years?", the reply is either silence or met with resistance.&nbsp; We have previously requested that unsubstantiated dates, parentage, siblings and children be unlinked by one particular site until such time as we may see the documentation.&nbsp; This has not occurred.&nbsp; As such, we have decided to attempt to begin anew.&nbsp; We hope you will come with us on our journey and perhaps, let us all reconsider some of our own "work".THE COUNTS NAME IS NOT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL WITH EVERY IMAGINABLE SIMILAR SOUNDING NAME.&nbsp; We acknowledge that the possibilities of different spellings of the Counts name seems endless and, in fact, even when we know we have the correct ancestor, the spelling of the name may be different than what we are accustomed to.&nbsp; This is one of the greatest difficulties in this quest.&nbsp; Could they all be related?&nbsp; We know, through DNA evidence, that last names ending in Counts are not all related just because we may have a similar sounding or similarly spelled or even same spelled name.&nbsp; &nbsp;Since we now know this for certain (we will furnish the site that compares DNA results which have been submitted thus far, later in the discussion) we may end up thinking we should just go ahead, connect and fill in the blanks anyway.&nbsp; After all, what difference does it make?&nbsp; But Is that justified?&nbsp; Is that research?&nbsp; Is that documentation?&nbsp; Is that what we truly want?In the early 1700's, America was not yet America and was under British control.&nbsp; &nbsp;As non-English speaking immigrants boarded ships and their names were demanded of them, what do you think a list of passenger names was comprised of?&nbsp; We believe names were spelled however they sounded to the person doing the writing, just like early census records who didn't verify the spelling but&nbsp; just spelled how they thought it was spelled which is not always accurate.&nbsp; How could uneducated Englishmen spell an unknown foreign language?&nbsp; How could an uneducated foreign speaking person understand an unknown English language?&nbsp; &nbsp;Therein lies one source of the problem we are now facing.&nbsp; We don't know if the names were instantly Anglicized at the time their names were first processed prior to boarding a ship, or if some did that later, in an effort to fit in or perhaps a certain spelling had already been established and they kept it.&nbsp; &nbsp;While it is most certainly true that we aren't sure of everything, at this point we know a little about what this particular line has not yet been proven to be and some of what is incorrect.DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE THREE KNOWN LINES OF UNRELATED COUNTS'?&nbsp; AT LEAST ONE KOONTZ LINE&nbsp; SUBMITTED DNA TESTING AS DID ONE GLADE HOLLOW COUNTS LINE.&nbsp; THE RESULTS?&nbsp; THEY DID NOT MATCH.&nbsp; &nbsp;(Per interview with Lowell Koontz, author of "Descendants of John Koontz" 7/21/2018)&nbsp; This, of course, does not mean that the results of those individuals represent their entire lines.&nbsp; DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED KOONTZ LINES THAT EVEN RESEARCHER/AUTHOR LOWELL KOONTZ STOPPED ATTEMPTING TO TRACK THEM?&nbsp; (Per interview withLowell Koontz, author of "Descendants of John Koontz" 7/31/2018.&nbsp; wxkoontz@gmail.com)Counts kin and researcher, ELIHU JASPER SUTHERLAND, spent 50 years of his life researching John Counts &amp; related families.&nbsp; He relays in his book "Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow" (from which we obtain certain documentation and biographical detail):&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "John Counts of Glade Hollow is the earliest definitely known ancestor of the Countses of Southwest Virginia."&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"Nothing is definitely known of his ancestry, birth, relatives or early life. .... The place of his nativity is likewise unknown." THIS IS OF PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE.&nbsp; While we acknowledge that the Internet has brought some of the world of research to our fingertips and the opportunity for locating missing information, many of our Counts and related families researchers who earnestly seek answers still have not located or have been provided with any actual documentation to fill in these missing unknowns.&nbsp; Instead, names and dates are being filled in with information that in some cases belong to another line completely.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Case in point:&nbsp; It has become commonplace to see the parents of John Counts of Glade Hollow being listed as Johannes Cuntze and Anna Elizabeth Catherine Stoever.&nbsp; Their names and documentation eluded master Counts researcher, Elihu Jasper Sutherland, who was darn near meticulous in finding available documentation during his time and would generally cite the source, especially one as important as this.&nbsp; &nbsp;Have you seen any sources cited for this "new" information?&nbsp; We, too, would love to know the names of his parents, his siblings, his birth date, his birth place.&nbsp; We just want it to be accurate and to have a verifiable source.</p></line><line><p>Cousin Sutherland hinted at the possibility that our John may have been related to Germanna's Jost Cuntze:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "It is also possible that our John Counts of Glade Hollow was a descendant of Joseph [Jost] Kuntz [Cuntze, per Germanna Foundation] (or COUNTS, as he spelled his name in his will in 1730, who came from Germany to Germanna, Virginia, in 1714." In our time, there is still no proven link between the CUNTZE line and our particular, JOHN COUNTS.&nbsp; (See Germanna Foundation for further information).&nbsp; So if people are repeating that the line IS linked to say, Johannes Michael Cuntze, we would appreciate seeing the documentation?&nbsp; &nbsp;The Germanna Foundation would appreciate it also.&nbsp;</p></line><line><p>According to LOWELL KOONTZ,&nbsp; Elizabeth Catherine Stoever was the wife of HIS Koontz line, the father of (Pastor of Mauck/Mauk's Meeting House) ELDER JOHN KOONTZ.&nbsp; &nbsp;Lowell, contends that HIS KOONTZ line and John Counts (of Glade Hollow) are DEFINATELY NOT THE SAME LINE.&nbsp; &nbsp;Yet, John Counts is marked on one memorial as being a definite sibling of Elder John Koontz.&nbsp; This would make not one but two John&rsquo;s in the same family.&nbsp; Evidence, please?&nbsp; Hard to fathom when even the descendant of Elder Koontz categorically states that they aren&rsquo;t siblings.&nbsp; He has even published a book on his line,&nbsp; &ldquo;Descendants of John Koontz&rdquo;, and Glade Hollow John did not make his list of researched siblings.&nbsp; Who are you going to believe? Lowell, did share with me that there was a time when even his John spelled his last name, COUNTS instead of KOONTZ.&nbsp; &nbsp; He cited the example of who he believed was his John owning land on Hawksbill Creek.&nbsp; That is where Glade Hollow John lived.&nbsp; Definately.&nbsp; Cousin Sutherland had established that through documentation.&nbsp; My personal view after speaking with Lowell Koontz is he has believed something was about HIS John when it was really Glade Hollow John.&nbsp; &nbsp;Could his John and ours be related?&nbsp; Lowell, does not think so but I am still open to the possibility.&nbsp; &nbsp;We do know that his John and our John, were different people with similar names.&nbsp; We know this because&nbsp; Elder John Koontz officiated at the marriage of our John's daughter, Mary "Mollie" Counts to Jacob Rasnake in 1784, where he was certified to being able to marry couples in Shenandoah County 1783 to 1827.&nbsp; &nbsp;Our John did not officiate at any marriages that we know of and no documentation was found indicating that he was licensed to perform marriages.&nbsp; &nbsp;Still, it is most interesting that two John Counts;/Koontz; lived near enough to each other to, at the very least, have known each other since one presided over the other's daughter's marriage ceremony.&nbsp; Further, Elder Koontz&rsquo; birthplace is Opequon Virginia which is in close proximity north of Hawksbill Creek, VA.&nbsp; &nbsp;Mauk&rsquo;s Meeting House (also called Mill Creek Church) is in close proximity to Luray, VA, which is close to Hawksbill Creek.&nbsp; Is it possible that Glade Hollow John attended the meeting house?&nbsp; I think it is very possible.&nbsp; The two John&rsquo;s definately knew each other, definitely lived in close proximity to one another and definately had dealings with each other (to wit: officiating at the marriage of the other John&rsquo;s daughter).&nbsp; But is this proof they were related?&nbsp;</p></line><line><p>Cousin Sutherland's "Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow" Page 18:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "The exact date of his passing is not now known.&nbsp; On April 27, 1803, his Will was presented before the [Russell County] Court .... and on July 26, 1803, it was again presented in court&nbsp; .... and ordered to be recorded."&nbsp; &nbsp;No word on why it was presented twice.&nbsp; The date is NOT THE DEATH DATE for John of Glade Hollow; only the date when his Will was presented to the court.&nbsp; Generally, a Will is submitted shortly after a person&rsquo;s death.&nbsp; The assumption, then, is his actual date of death was near the first date.&nbsp; Lowell Koontz' John died in 1832 in Page County where he is buried.&nbsp; Our John died in 1803 and is buried in Russell County.&nbsp; &nbsp;Two different men.&nbsp;</p></line><line><p>Some information belonging to one, is attributed to the other.THE DOCUMENTED CHILDREN OF JOHN COUNTS OF GLADE HOLLOW.&nbsp; (Source info and documentation was retrieved and viewed by Elihu Jasper Sutherland and then the info was provided in his "Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow").</p></line><line><p>1.&nbsp; EVE married Matthew Mattox (sometimes spelled Maddox on certain documents).</p></line><line><p>2.&nbsp; Mary "Mollie" married Jacob Rasnake (also spelled Reversnuck/Rosesnake/ Rasnick, and other spellings, on some documents)</p></line><line><p>3.&nbsp; John (Jr of Cleveland) married Margaret Kelly.</p></line><line><p>4.&nbsp; Elizabeth "Lissey" married Henry "Harry" Willard.</p></line><line><p>5.&nbsp; Catherine, (no details by Sutherland).</p></line><line><p>6.&nbsp; Christina, ( (no details by Sutherland).</p></line><line><p>7.&nbsp; Philip married Anna Kiser.</p></line><line><p>8.&nbsp; George, married Eve Haynes.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</p></line><line><p>MORE TO COME.&nbsp; A WORK IN PROGRESS.</p></line><line><p>Inscription: To the memory of John Counts of Glade Hollow.&nbsp; &nbsp;Died 1803.&nbsp; &nbsp; And his wife Mary Magdeline Counts.&nbsp; Born 1722.&nbsp; Died June 25, 1814.&nbsp; Erected by their descendants 1948.</p></line><line><p>Gravesite Details Up a rounded hill, in a nonfenced field, 25 ft X 25 ft.&nbsp; 7 native limestone very old weather beaten head &amp; foot markers.&nbsp; The lrgst revealed Mary Counts&rsquo; birth yr &amp; DOD was personally read by EJSutherland.&nbsp; As of 7/2019, overgrown &amp;</p></line><line><p>Family Members</p></line><line><p>Parents</p></line><line><p>Johannes Michael Cuntze&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1706-1777</p></line><line><p>Anna Catherine Stoever Cuntze&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1710-1748</p></line><line><p>Spouse</p></line><line><p>Mary Magdeline Counts&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1722-1814</p></line><line><p>Siblings</p></line><line><p>Nicholas X Counts&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1729-1797</p></line><line><p>William Counts&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1732-1814</p></line><line><p>Peter Dietrich Counts&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1735-1813</p></line><line><p>Jacob Koontz&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1737-1823</p></line><line><p>John Koontz&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1739-1832</p></line><line><p>Michael Counts&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1741-1803</p></line><line><p>George Koontz&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1741-1827</p></line><line><p>Children</p></line><line><p>Mary Counts Rasnick&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1764-1834</p></line><line><p>John Counts&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1765-1843</p></line><line><p>Christina Counts Shealy&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1771-1857</p></line><line><p>George Koontz&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1778-Unknown</p></line><line><p>Catherine Koontz Miller&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1789-Unknown</p></line><line><p>Nancy Koontz Kiser&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1789-Unknown</p></line><line><p>Created by: Barbara Anne (Brownell) Potter (46034604)</p></line><line><p>Added: 8 May 2009</p></line><line><p>URL: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/36880528</p></line><line><p>Citation: Find a Grave, database and images (https://www.findagrave.com : accessed 08 April 2020), memorial page for John &ldquo;of Glade Hollow&rdquo; Counts (1734&ndash;27 Apr 1803), Find a Grave Memorial no. 36880528, citing Counts Cemetery # 1 Glade Hollow, Cleveland, Russell County, Virginia, USA ; Maintained by Barbara Anne (Brownell) Potter (contributor 46034604) .</p></line><line><p>&nbsp;</p></line></content></metadataxml> |
| OBJE:_CREA | 2020-04-08 23:00:40.000 |
| OBJE:_ORIG | u |
| Unique identifier | 97F9DC379E6C4DB99C1D16E858B0507739A7 |
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John H Koontz
John Koontz John Koons |
1757 1725 |
267 |
Maryland, USA Frederick, Frederick, Maryland, United States |
5 |
1806 April 11, 1807 |
218 | 49 |
Baldwin, Ashe, North Carolina, USA Ashe County, North Carolina, United States |
M | YES | YES | |||||
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